Podcast 360 Episode 7: Shira Atkins and Will Malnati
Podcast 360 Episode 7: Shira Atkins and Will Malnati
Host: Shira Atkins
Shira Atkins: Hello. I'm Shira Atkins, Co-Founder and Chief Revenue Officer of Wonder Media Network. I was a guest on last week's episode when Dan Meisner of Bumper interviewed me. Make sure you jump back and give that a listen if you haven't listened yet. And who's in the hot seat as today's guest?
Will Malnati: Hey, I'm Will Malnati. I'm Founder of At Will Media. Super excited to be here. Thank you, Shira, for wanting to chat with me for a bit today.
Shira Atkins: This is an absolute pleasure. I could think of only one person when they asked me who else in the industry I would like to speak to.
They typically kick off these episodes with a round of two truths and a lie, which is so fun. Nice throwback. So, Will, you're going to provide us with three facts about yourself. I'm going to guess which one is the lie. And then at the end of the conversation, we will circle back and we'll find out the answer. So are you ready to share your three facts?
Will Malnati: I'm very ready. Here it goes. Number one: I was introduced to podcasting because a cousin of mine used to work with Guy Raz. Number two: the first revenue I ever brought in for At Will Media was from a Squarespace ad. Number three: Alex Blumberg of Gimlet Media and I are neighborhood drinking buddies.
Shira Atkins: All are extremely plausible. You're very good at this game. I feel like the Squarespace is the most likely. I feel like my first revenue is from Audible or something for one of those ads from Performance Bridge. You've never mentioned Guy Raz. So, let's just say that.
Will Malnati: But you didn't know that I knew who Guy Raz was? Guy Raz is like a founding father, I feel like, in a way. Isn't this a podcast where founders talk to founders and isn't that his, like wheelhouse?
Shira Atkins: Yeah, totally. That is his wheelhouse. One of the things that I love most about you is your independent spirit and your sense of irreverence. And I don't know, it just seems like a little mainstream, to namedrop Guy Raz. Anyway, It just seems more plausible to me that you are friends with Alex.
Okay, so now that we've taken care of that, we are going to get to know you and about your podcast career. I'm going to ask you some questions and you'll have 60 seconds to answer each. And then after that you get to pick one of the subjects that we touched on and we'll dig a little deeper into that and you can elaborate your thoughts. Are you ready?
Will Malnati: I'm ready.
What do you think has been the greatest advancement or best thing to happen to the podcasting industry in the past five years?
Will Malnati: Okay. So I think from a micro perspective, I think about things like simple tech advancements, like dynamic ad insertion that, believe it or not, looks like a very big thing to enter in the space. I just have so many old podcast episodes that will just have forever baked in ads. Another thing would be like Apple subscriptions or anyone to try to make some money off of their podcasts where they otherwise weren't.
And then from a macro perspective, I think it's just all these like legacy brands really entering the space and making sure that they're there, kind of doubling down in some capacity from Apple to Amazon to Sony. And these are places that - at least for my business model - make it more kind of legitimate in a way. And the money that they're bringing into the industry allows for other things to happen.
Shira Atkins: That was really good. I just never, once again, first you're talking about Guy Raz and you're talking about dynamic ad insertion. I'm sort of like, well, have we met?
Will Malnati: I'm trying to throw you off. By the way, how do you know that that answer wasn't two truths and a lie?
Shira Atkins: laughter
Shira Atkins: Well, when you talked about Apple subscriptions, I was like, saying Apple subscriptions are the best thing to happen in the industry is bold. That would be my lie out of those three things. But we can debate that at another time, perhaps on another competing podcast.
Will Malnati: I think I was more going for the most significant turns in the industry, the most significant introductions, I guess, to the industry.
Shira Atkins: That's totally fair. Okay. Next one. Are you ready?
What is the best thing that you have done personally for the podcast industry in the past five years?
Will Malnati: First of all, that's putting a lot of weight on my shoulders. Anything that I did is truly a team effort. Listen, I think that the biggest thing for me or for my team was selling our first kind of original project because until that time, which was in 2019.
For us, from 2016 to 2019, it was all about production services and trying to kind of generate revenue from brands and having clients. Once we kind of sold our first original to Audible, actually, it was like it was a big change for me in terms of momentum.
It was a momentum shift and it allowed us to pivot in a new revenue stream and a new kind of functionality of the team that had existed thus far.
Will Malnati: That's just such a hard question to answer. What have you done? What have you done for the industry lately?
Shira Atkins: Yeah, I feel like we're the stalwarts in a certain way. Like we've been around - we're like old school. The fact that we still exist and are hiring people, it does shape the industry. Not to get too sappy, but…
Will Malnati: No, I think that's right. I do agree that there's something to be said about the kind of early adopters, you know, the people that were in the industry first, especially with small businesses that like we maybe played a role in kind of defining what the industry or like the DNA of it would be for future years to come. So I definitely think there's something about that.
Shira Atkins: That's a good Segway into the last of the three 60 second questions.
Given what's happening in the industry right now with celebration and pullback in spending and the doom and gloom and all of this - what do you think that we, as independent small business owners, should be doing to keep our businesses thriving and successful when there's so many around us that are failing?
Will Malnati: I think the first thing is trying to keep a positive outlook, and that's internally and externally, for myself, but also internally for my team. I think that's super important. And just like maintaining this positivity surrounding the business, what it is, what it has been, what it is now and what it has yet to become. And I think that's a big piece for me.
The second is just more of a tactical thing, which is just constantly scrutinizing spending. Just from a business perspective, constantly looking at the things that maybe were okay to spend on in the last year and a half and saying, you know what, this is nice to have, but this is not a need to have. And pushing your team and your leaders from your team to be thinking in the same way.
And the other thing is just about like being smart and strategic about which projects you actually pursue. I think a lot of times it was like, let's pursue a bunch of things and now it's like, let's pursue the best things.
So now that we have answered those three questions, Will, is there anything in any of those answers that you want to revisit or that we should speak about further?
Will Malnati: You tell me. Which one sparked you the most interest? Apple subscriptions?
Shira Atkins: I mean, we don't need to talk about that.
I just think it's crazy. They're so obsessed with pushing subscriptions because they have to. I understand that they need to show any amount of revenue coming out of that business to be important. And the schemata of like, what is Apple?
But they came out guns blazing like this was going to be the best thing for independent creators in the podcasting ecosystem, and I think actually what they ended up giving to us was an even worse system for finding curation that put more onus on independents to develop more content so that we could be even more on our knees for Apple's needs.
And I have a lot of friends who work at Apple and people that I love there, and I have been shocked by how party line they are on this, and it's frustrating that like effectively you can't get promotion unless you have subscription. They will deny this because obviously pay to play is a huge problem, antitrust issue, but like it is the truth. I mean, that is how it functions now. So I'm anti.
Will Malnati: That is certainly more within your business model than ours, I will say. So you have probably a better look under the hood when it comes to that type of thing. So you'll have to educate me at some point further. What else?
Shira Atkins: I hear you on the positive outlook piece. How big is your company now? How many employees?
Will Malnati: 30.
Shira Atkins: Yeah. Wow. So when we were 30 when we sadly had to do some layoffs, we're now creeping back up. I think we're like 22 or 23 now, and they're 23 human beings that are like seeing all this shit around us. And it's really hard. And they're 23 people that make really creative and beautiful work and are pretty focused on the work is the truth. Like most of our team is producers, we don't have a very robust business team.
So what feels like, to me, as a business leader I run revenue, it feels apocalyptic every day. I have to remember that A) they're probably not paying that much attention to it necessarily. And B), if they are, they want to contextualize it in terms that they can understand, which is our business. Like is our business doing okay and what can they be doing to keep their jobs and continue to make good stuff? So that definitely resonates. It's a good reminder because I'm lucky to have a business partner who's very sunny and optimistic, so she helps.
Will Malnati: That's really helpful. I think for us, we've been trying to kind of be as transparent as possible as well during this time with the team. You can read three articles right now by Googling the podcast industry and it will feel like it's the end of the world is nigh. And I think that what I try to do is say, look, you can read these articles, but here is what's going on with us, and here's how we fit into the larger scheme. And I think that that helps a little bit. Even though it's scary sometimes to be fully transparent with everyone. Especially like you said, every role in the company doesn't always think about it in the same way.
And at the end of the day, like some people that I speak with that are either podcast owners or podcast executives and they can also shed light on this time to even just like early in any industry- has it's kind of ups and downs and has this kind of lack of security from year to year until it is more mature. And I think that's one thing that I keep reminding myself is this is still a very immature industry in a way.
Obviously, like we talked about, it's come a long way over the past five years, but there's still so much growth that is going to happen. And so I think that looking at it like that - from the 30,000 foot view, it's helpful for me and it's helpful for, you know, people on the team and knowing like, hey, remember the, you know, the.com bubble? There was so much uncertainty there, and it's doing okay now. And so if I look at it like that, it helps to sleep better.
Shira Atkins: Well, you definitely need that, especially with a newborn.
Will Malnati: Yes, exactly.
Two Truths and a Lie
Shira Atkins: Well, thank you. Will we have one more thing to take care of before we go, which is we have to revisit our two truths and a lie. Here we go. I think I'm going to stick with my answer because it's not like you revealed anything that would make me feel otherwise. So here we go.
Will Malnati: I should have somehow worked in like, you know, so Guy and I the other day were just with my cousin. But now I think the interesting part, the thing that probably makes you good at your job is that you're very intuitive and that you can read body language well and attention to detail. And so very nice work on spotting my lie.
Shira Atkins: Well, great. Such a casual flex to be like, yeah, I'm drinking buddies with Alex Blumberg. It just seemed like something you would say.
Will Malnati: No, no it wasn't meant to be. It was actually meant to try to make the other one feel more realistic. But I do now need to develop a relationship with Guy Raz as quickly as possible, so that next time I'm on here, I can throw that in there and really tell people.
Shira Atkins: Well, you know, part of this podcast is that you're going to interview somebody so you could try to get Guy.
Will Malnati: But is an owner of a podcast company? I don't know. Does he have like Guy Raz Industries or something?
Shira Atkins: He probably has a production company.
Will Malnati: Yeah, okay.
Shira Atkins: It's been a pleasure.
If people want to listen to stuff that you've made and find more about you, how should they do that?
Will Malnati: Okay, so it's just AtWill.US Otherwise it's @AtWill all handles.
Shira Atkins: Okay, great. Love it. Thank you again so much for being my guest and for the Podcast 360 team. Thank you for having us and coordinating and arranging. If people want to get more of me, which I don't imagine you will, but if you do, I did a previous interview with Dan Meisner, who is a brilliant marketer and business mind, so you should check that out.
Thank you for joining us on this episode of Podcast 360.
Shaping the podcast industry!
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